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Food for Thought
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Ni'Xuin
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Joined: 22 May 2009
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:02 pm Post subject: Food for Thought Reply with quote

Almost three years ago, Blue Lotus Clan moved to the Atlantic shard from Great Lakes. We have enjoyed our time here greatly, but like any move, things can always seem just abit different.

A few nights ago in a discussion with Arahim, the style and differences in Role play came up, and I offered an article that was written quite some time ago by a vet. player from Great Lakes Shard. Arahim enjoyed it and with Redlow's persmission I am going to repost for our new friends to read, discuss and enjoy.

By NO MEANS is this meant to be offense or to point fingers, but this article is something I frequent when thinking of a new character, plot line etc.


http://www.redlow.net/portfolio/elements.php
_______________________________________

Section 1. What Makes a Good Character?
When you sit down to create a new character -- for a storyline, a new establishment you're creating, to be a PVP character, part of a quest, or just to make a new RP character -- what is the first thing you decide? No, really! Stop reading. Think about it long and hard for a minute. Try to remember the last character you made and how you went about doing it.

Now, what was the first thing you decided? Was your answer something like: "taming/veterinary/animal lore/magery/meditation/resist/eval"? If so, you have broken my first rule for creating a character. A character should be like a real person. Absolutely no one decides on the day they were born that when they grow up, they want to go to The University of North Dakota to study marine biology and then work for the US Government doing studies of the deep ocean floor. No. That's just not how it works. They discover, as they grow up, things that fascinate them.. or are pushed in certain directions by what happens to them. This is how your character should be. There are elements of design you must finish before choosing the skills he or she will have:

A. Family History.
Detail the biological history of the character. Go at least two generations back. Who are the character's great grandparents? Who are the character's grand parents? Parents? Immediate brothers and sisters? Important cousins, nephews, aunts, uncles? Come up with their names. First and Last. Come up with a vague understanding of their lives, as well--their jobs, duties, important events in their life, accomplishments. You might even consider making a family tree.

B. The Character's Name.
This is not something to be done in a second. My number one peice of advice is not to use names from a movie or book you love. Don't do this. You will have zero respect from me if you do this until I get to know your player. And even then, I'll probably make fun of your character's name. If you really love a book or movie SO much that you HAVE to put something into the game from it, pick an obscure name. Second, don't take names from UO fiction. This.. this should be a given, but I don't understand why people still do it. Dupre? Iolo? Mondain? STOP THAT! STOP THAT, STOP THAT, STOP THAT! Also, don't put "Sir" infront of your name. You have to EARN a title like that. The same goes for calling yourself something like "Dark Shadow". Sure, it sounds cool, but .. c'mon. Who is named Dark Shadow? R-o-l-e P-l-a-y. Give your character a real first and last name. Make it pronouncable. Xxarylsra'sxtan might look interesting, but can you say it? You don't have to give your character a name from real life. You don't have to name her Sue Ellen or name him David Jones. Just use english grammar. A silent e changes a vowel's sound, and usually consanants are not found more than two in a row. Ullar DeVane. Morash Kallore. Notice that in both examples there, the first and last names have two syllables. This makes them catchy--it has to do with the rules of poetry. If you want a long first name or long last name, be sure to counter balance it. If you want a long last name, have a short first name or vice versa. Good: Don Valahumansa. Good: Mylanatambra Ven. Bad: Toramala Kansusaman. Bad: Ellanoria VonDesbrenka.

C. Childhood.
Detail the character's youth. Where was he or she born? Did he or she have many friends? Are they still alive? Where did the character go to school, if any? How was the character raised? Did she have brutal parents? Did he have nice parents? Spoiled rotten?What events happened in your character's childhood? Did he witness a murder? Did she get vanquished? Was he saved from being murdered by a friend? Did she meet someone famous? Keep it real though. No one is saved from the clutches of an evil wizard, a horde of orcs, escapes from the lair of a sleeping dragon, and meets a god all in their childhood. It doesn't have to be something spectacular. In fact, the more seemingly less important, the more impact it will have. The child who witnesses a village get stormed by orcs is TRAUMATIZED, not changed. The child who is kidnapped and held prisoner by an evil wizard is DEPRESSED for life, not changed. But the child who sees a warrior spare an orc pleading for its life is inspired and IS changed.

D. Personality.
The character's personality should be carefully decided based on what you have chosen for his/her childhood and now based slightly on what you think the character's profession should be. Will she be sympathetic? Heartless? Will he be outgoing or introverted? Easily prone to anger or generally calm? I include in this section things like hobbies or quirks. You should figure out the trivial stuff too. Does she have a rock collection? A shell collection? Will he refuse to eat a certain type of food? Is he afraid of magic? Does she have allergies to cats? Does she hate people who
can't
seem
to
talk
any
way
other than
this?

E. Goals and the "Fatal Flaw".
If the character is involved in a quest, he or she should probably have a goal. It might not be much. The character might just be a throw away that gives the players a hint. But she should still have some sort of goal. He might just be frightened of the players and trying to get them to go away as soon as possible. Or she might be the sort who likes to amuse herself and keeps toying with the players. Regardless of whether a character is in a quest or not, she should have, what is referred to in literature as a "fatal flaw". In Hamlet, his flaw was his inability to decide and act. This is a complex thing to describe, so I can only do it by an example. A very sterotypical examples but it gets the message across more easily:

Example: Say your character had a brother once, and that brother was killed by orcs. Not just killed by orcs; butchered by orcs. And forced to watch. And then forced to watch as the orcs drank his blood. Now.. your character goes a little insane after this and goes on a killing rampage, destroying every orc clan he can find. Nothing stops him. Nothing gets in his way. Nothing will prevent him from eradicating the orcs. BUT! The character comes upon four orcs. One orc immediately comes at him, trying to prevent him from getting to the others. He easily kills that orc, then stops. The other three orcs are obviously a mother and father and a small child orc. The child is quivering, terrified to death, and the two parents are defiantly keeping the child behind them. The character is immediately taken back to the scene with his brother. Hasn't the character become the very monster he was trying to destroy? Can he kill the parents? And moreover, can he kill that child? Can he force any of the three to watch as he murders their very kin? This dilema is the character's "fatal flaw". It keeps him back. It keeps him from getting his goal. It creates an internal conflict. CONFLICT IS THE HEART OF ANY GOOD STORY. I'll touch on that important note a little later.

F. Skills and Stats.
Now is the time to choose your character's skills. Pick them based on the character's history and the direction her life has gone. If, like the example of the child who witnessed the warrior spare an orc, the character witnessed something like that, she may decide to become a spiritual monk type; a protector of life, as she believes all life is precious. Being practical, you might choose something like: healing/anatomy for the protective bit, and then resist/magery/tactics/swords/parry. This is wrong. Totally wrong. All though the character is practical and able to survive, you've just gone against everything you took SOOO long to create. Here is a more proper template for the character you've just developed: healing/ anatomy/ spirit speak /veterinary /taming /magery /meditation. Even that is a little bogus, as I cannot picture the character that has been described as having magery. But the meditation does fit in. Obviously, you don't want a worthless character--as it would have been without magery--but you should keep it as realistic as possible.

F. The Interview or Bio-Quiz test.
You should know your character like the back of your hand. He or she should be to you as a real person. Here's two ways to determine if you know enough about your character. Find one of those Bio-quizzes that people sometimes email out in chain letters. You know the type I mean. It'll ask your favorite color, your favorite food, what sort of music you like, what your hobbies are, what you said when the teachers asked 'what do you wnat to be when you grow up'. Then, take that survey and fill it out as your character would do. If it asks for out of character stuff (like, "your favorite car" or "your favorite movie"), fill it out with a response that WOULD be the character's favorite car/movie if cars and movies existed in UO. If you are caught at a few questions when you're not certain, then you may not have done enough work. Though, the survey should help you along. It often helps to base a character on someone you know in real life. Another way to determine if you know a character or not is to interview them. You might actually go far enough as to have someone else give you an interview and you respond as your character would. BUt you don't have to. You could have a conversation with your character, so to speak. The same rules apply with this. If you catch yourself not knowing an answer, you might want to do more work.

Section 2. What Makes a Good Story?
At the base of a story, there are really only three things that make it good. The first is characters. A story needs good, lively characters that seem real. The second is conflict. Conflict is what this section is mostly about. Without a conflict (be it an internal conflict, a conflict between two people, or a conflict with nature), a story is nothing. A story cannot be a story without at least one conflict. And last, a story needs a change. Usually, the change is in the character or characters, but it can sometimes be in a set of ideas a group of people believe in or even a change in the enviroment or culture. You've got a good character already. Let's assume that the story you want to work on has several of these good characters.

A. C O N F L I C T.
As I stated at earlier points, conflict is what drives a story. What makes you keep reading that 800 page book? Is it the way the writer uses such good prose? Is it because you are fascinated by the world the writer is describing? Is it because Modanor is a badass mage and could kick Eliminster's ass from here to neptune? No, probably not. It's probably because Modanor has fallen in love with Tabitha, but has been ordered to kill her by his boss. Only, there's Tabitha's friend and loyal companion, Sir Dawain, who knows Modanor loves her and knowns he's been ordered to kill her, and will stop Modanor at any costs -- because Sir Dawain is in love with her too. WHEW! Now that makes for a page turner. Still not convinced? Let me give you an example of something that might appear on stratics from time to time:

"Da'banth turned from the painting on the wall he had been studying for the past few minutes. He gazed out to the horizon, resting his hands on the crenelations of his tower's roof. He smiled inwardly as he saw the dark clouds gathering in the distance. The dark heart of my master is awakening, he thought to hismelf. He let his inward smile spread outward as the clouds he watched rolled and thundered. Soon, he mused, the forces of good will be crushed under my master's might.
Da'banth turned and walked down the steps into the heart of his tower. There, his servant waited for him. "Jorin," he addressed the humble servant, "inform the troops that the time has come." His servant nodded and exited through the tower's front metal door. Da'banth smiled with delight. Good would be crushed. None could stand in the way of the dark master. He returned to the tower roof to begin to make preparations for his arrival"

Bllleecch! And barf! Now usually, those types of posts are about three times as long. Why is it so dull? There's two reasons, really. One is something I describe in the third section. But the primary reason? Lack of conflict. What keeps the reader going? The ONLY thing that keeps the reader going in that sort of post is the omininous tone. But imagine if it was five pages long. NO one in their right mind would bother to read it, unless it was the author--who, *of course*, finds the story interesting, because he or she is the one who wrote it! If you're still not convinced, ask yourself why I keep posing questions in this essay. What purpose does it serve? Why keep asking you questions? The answer is because I am setting up a feeling of argument. And by argument, I mean conflict. Believe me, it would be a lot less exciting if there wasn't an argumentive feel to the essay (not to say that it *is* exciting. Just that it would be even less exciting).

Something I like to call a fallacy of RP is that people think a quest without player involvement is not good. No. No, this is not true. A quest is about roleplaying and conflict. A quest is like watching a play put on in game. Running a quest is like storytelling. That is why conflict is so very important. Sure, on one hand, it might be interesting and fun if a quest is about a witch who needs the player to go do tasks for her. "Go get me frog legs," says the witch. You bring her frog legs. "Good, good," She says, "now go get me a mongbat stew recipe." You do that. At the end, her potion is complete. And then? And then? AND THEN?! Oh, wait. That's it. You were just being her little wench. End of quest, what fun. No, a quest is about a story. What determines a story is the conflict. Below, are the literary types of conflict as well as an example of how it would be used in a quest in UO. (are you starting to see how literature and roleplaying fit together, by the way?)

A. Man versus Self
This is a conflict between a human being and her/his internal self. It is the most common type of conflict in every day life, but the least often used in UO. In fact, this type of conflict happens every day. Do I eat at McDonald's or do I eat at Hardee's? Should I study for that midterm exam instead of seeing my boyfriend? This sort of conflict strongly comes in to play with a character's fatal flaw. The key moment in a portion of a quest using this type of conflict, should in fact, be the moment involving the fatal flaw. Let's say, for example, the main character of the quest is searching for a childhood friend who she believes is lost somewhere in Ilshenar. She desperately wants to save this friend, but her "fatal flaw" is that she has trouble knowing who to trust (due laregly in part because of her father leaving her early in her childhood). She has been told that her friend is lost in Ilshenar because she murdered a diplomat of Yew and fled there. She was told this, however, by someone who has a dubious reputation. Now, the conflict created here is within: who does she trust? Her friend? Could she have been so wrong about her friend? Which opens up other questions: Would it be right to save her friend? What if this person is lying? Wouldn't it be disloyal to her country to look for her friend? All of this should be played out in game, with occasionally the players involved helping. She might ask the players for their advice in deciding. Or she might ask the players to find out the reputation of the person who told her why her friend was in Ilshenar. Yes, player involvement makes a quest better, but simply giving the players tasks to do and then rewarding them with phat lewt is not the answer. There has to be something resolved. There has to be a change or resolution. Just having a person ask for a bunch of stuff and then give phat lewt with no purpose to it all is a cop out.

B. Man versus Man
You may not believe it, but this is the least common type of conflict in real life, but it is the most common portrayed in UO and in television and movies. It's the easiest to do. This is, obviously, a conflict between two people. The only thing I have to say abuot this in regards to UO, is that it is overdone and sometimes done poorly. I would avoid this type of conflict because of this. If you do want to use it, just make sure that there is a victor and there is reason behind it. Never do people fight because they enjoy it. They fight over land, they fight over women, they fight over religion. And never does the fight continue on and on and on and on. If you make a quest's main focus war, then make sure it ends. Don't leave those watching hanging forever. They'll get bored with it, and guess what? They'll stop paying attention to your quest.

C. Man versus Nature
This isn't a very common type of conflict in real life and I've never seen it done in UO. But, it's still worth mentioning. This is a conflict between man and beast or man and the elements. Such as a group of people trying to survive in a blizzard. How can it be used in UO? Well, it's definitely hard to do. I'm not sure if it can be used as the main conflict of a story.. but it can certainly be used as an element. A recent storm that left a group of characters stranded somewhere could be a possibility. The players would then need to rescue them. Though.. you can't really use nature as the main conflict of a quest because Ultima Online has no storms. It's possible that you could come up with some sort of quest involving killing animals that are threatening something. Maybe a simple quest given by a farmer to kill rabbits that are eating crops could perhaps work. As mentioned bofore though, that shouldn't be the extent of a quest. No one wants to be ordered around like a slave.

D. Man versus society
This is the least common type of conflict in real life but is slightly more common than Man versus Nature in UO. It is a conflict of one or many people against culture, society, or an accepted practice. The best example I can think of is the short story The Lottery. The accepted practice is that each year, the village in the story gather around to have a drawing. The "winner" of the drawing is stoned to death. It's one of those sacrificial things to try to get better crops. At first the main character does not object to the common practice of culture. Until she wins the lottery and decides then that the society is wrong to hold a lottery like that. Thus, she is in direct conflict with society. An example of this being used in UO would be something like a rebellion against the government in one extreme, or in another extreme, one lone orc struggling to convince his brothers and sisters that killing humans is bad. Both ideas have much potential.
Now, let me take those elements and work them into a write-up for a website like stratics that could be used to introduce a quest. For reasons mentioned below, I won't work them into the previous fictional example, because the story presented in that example has some fundamental flaws.

"Marley sighed and looked away from the painting on the wall. He clutched his right hand into a fist and clenched his teeth together tightly. Try as he might, the tears still came. They came in waves, flowing down his face and dripping onto his clenched fist. He struggled to get the dark thoughts out of his head. She had to die, he affirmed to himself. It was the only way, he told himself. But try to convince himself as he might, he couldn't control the grief, the anguish, the staggering guilt.

His servant Patsy gently stepped quietly into the room. Marley, hearing his entrance, immediately wiped his face and breathed in sharply, held it for a moment, and then turned to face Patsy. "You should have knocked first," Marley chided him.
For a moment, Patsy said nothing. Then he spoke up, definantly. "But you said that I should tell you whe-"
Marley slammed his fist against the wall, under the painting of his dead wife he had been gazing at. "Dammit, man! Don't talk back to me!" Marley had intended to continue his lecture, but stopped abruptly. In his servant's frightened state, Patsy had dropped a ring. Marley looked for a long period at the ring. It bore the insignia of Duke Wallenston. The only witness to his wife's sacrifice. The man was still alive, Marley realized. He had to be stopped. "Put forth a call, Patsy," Marley ordered. "I am putting a reward out for the head of Duke Wallenston."

My writing style isn't perfect, but I hope you can see how it differs. There is internal conflict and man versus man conflict while still introducing the plot of the quest. The real trick, after this, is to ensure that the conflict in the story continues in game.

B. CHANGE
okay, so you think you might take what I've written here and put it to practice by running a quest. You setup your characters involved and introduce the story and get players interested and everything is going well and you're all set to end it. Do you end it just with a resolution of the conflict and by giving players some sort of reward? Yes, you do those things, but that's not all. There must be a change. The plot line that has just ended will happen again and again, realistically, if a character does not change or learn something, at least. Before the quest, perhaps the character was mean and arogant towards women. At the end of the quest, maybe because a woman helped the character, he is nice to them. At the beginning of the quest, the character had trouble saying what she meant. She dodged around issues and didn't give her real opinion of anything out of fear of offending somene or seeming judgemental. Perhaps because at one point during the quest she was forced to take charge, she became more straight-forward at the end. This is an abstract idea and isn't always visible to other players. It's more about How you roleplay the character. But, in my opinion - and all this is highly opinionated - it needs to be there. It's a little bit like Lassie. Lassie save timmy from the well! Lassie save timmy from the vicious wolves! Lassie save timmy from falling over the waterfall! Lassie save timmy from the vicious flesh eating virus! Either Lassie needs to decide not to save timmy again or timmy needs to learn to be more careful. A character needs to change in some way in a quest, or like the Lassie episodes, it just becomes a cycle. Further, it just gives the quest more meaning and finality. It imparts a lesson of sorts. You may think it trivial because the players on the quest won't know the character has changed immediately, but because of the change, the way you RP the character should reflect the change, and the players will eventually learn that he or she is different somehow.

Section 3. What Are the Finer Details?
I move on now from my opinion on individual Roleplaying and Quest creation to the finer aspects of RP. RP in the day to day routine. Or, essentially, what are the Do's and Do Not's of RP.

Do Keep it Real
Keep your RP grounded in reality. Earlier I said that the first example of a fictional post to stratics had some fundamental flaws. This is what I was referring to. Not everyone can be a super hero badass character from the ninth circle of hell. Not every storyline has to be about the emminent destruction of the world because the master of uber evilness from that ninth circle of hell is coming to destroy everything. The best quests are the more miniscule ones. The ones that deal with things on a very intimiate, very personal level. Which sounds more exciting? A quest about a group of dark shadowy figures waking up from the deep sleep they've been in for 500 years, coming back to destroy Britannia? Orrr... The farmer whose pies keep getting stolen out of his window sill by some pesky ratman? Or, with characters, which sounds more interesting? The vampire lord Das'sutan who has the ability to turn people to stone with his gaze and can destroy a soul with the flick of his finger? Or the knight who was removed from service under Lord British because of a drinking problem and is now bitter, but refuses to blame himself? In both cases, I really hope you think it's the latter.

Do Avoid Roleplay Masturbation
Okay.. this is one I hear a lot of objection to. And like a lot of my other ideas that I have way too much time to come up with, I've given this one a name. Simply put, Roleplay Masturbation is when a character tries to Roleplay with someone who isn't roleplaying. Exmample: Knightly Character A encounters dewd B. Knightly Character A asks "how fare thee?" of dewd B. Dewd B responds by saying "wtf" and then proceeding to tell Character A that she is a newbie trammie and should go back to playing nintendo games. Should Character A continue to try to roleplay with this sort of immaturishness? Some would think so, but I disagree. To do so is just Roleplay Masturbation. You're only fueling the dewd by continuing to RP and not only that, you are really just entertaining yourself. It's like yelling at a TV character when watching a horror movie. You know that big breasted blonde is going to go into the dark cellar alone, yet you yell at her to stop anyway. Why? It doesn't do you any good. The TV can't hear you. Besides that, the more time you spend trying to RP with a dewd, the less time you spend RPing with people who care.

Don't Arbitrary Roleplay
This is something I find myself crying out in outrage against. I know people don't like to be told what they can and can't roleplay, but the simple fact is that you can't RP something the game's mechanics can't allow. My favorite example (and fictional) is the character who says he has a sword of soul stealing. The only way you can steal souls with a sword is to emote it. Player A walks up to Player B and emotes, *hits with sword* , followed by *steals soul*. "Eh? what?" says Player B. "I dodge," says Player B. "No, you can't dodge. I'm too quick," Says Player A. And here we reach an impasse. Neither can get any where with that kind of RP. Unless both players have agreed to the way it works before hand, it's just silliness. Have you ever been in IRC when two people are mock dueling? One person will slap the other with a fish.. the other will return by stabbing them. Then the other decides to block, then the other decides to drop a house on them. Then, of course, the person decides to catch the house. This is what Arbitrary Roleplaying is. If we're going to RP this way, anything is possible and we're all Gods. You might object then and say that you can't really RP anything in UO. But that isn't the case. Orcs? Elves? I have no problem with this because roleplaying them doesn't require the player to assume any special powers. You can RP an orc within the confines of the game. Orcs have no special abilities. It's all about attitude and behavior.

Don't Assume Anything
There are some aspects of the game that are very tempting to touch. But you shouldn't touch them. It's a big no-no. I'm referring to assuming fiction that you don't have access to. That's still vague. Let me give an example. You're wanting to start a quest about a group of evil necromancers that have been around for centuries. Okay so far. This evil group of necromancers were the ones who created the wisps. Ehh... you're getting on thin ice there. This group, in fact, created the wisps to be the guardians of their hidden knowledge. Wait a minute, wait a minute! Hold the phone. If you go to Ultima fiction, wisps are actually manifestations of a different dimension and were created by no one in Britannia. What you have done by creating this group of necromancers is decided the fiction of the world for yourself. Other examples would be to say that Dupre gave you permission to house troops of your guild in the homes of Britannia. Or that Sherry the mouse is a good friend of your character and sometimes tells her stories. In those cases, you are taking Prime Fiction characters and putting words into their mouths. Let me offer an alternative to that first example presented. Let's say your ancient group of necromancers created a special type of wisp, after studying the real thing. And that special type of wisp they devised is still around, indistinguishable from the others. Now you have something of your own, and it doesn't step on the toes of UO, and only with such a simple change!

Don't Refer to Yourself in the Third Person
This is a given. Or it should be. But people still struggle with it. I have seen on many occasions people who are roleplayers and who were supposed to be roleplaying at the time they were talking to me refer to their characters in the third person. What the heck do I mean? Have you ever heard someone say this: "This character needs to get his fencing up"? If you slip up and do this, stop. Stop. Stop and log out of the game. Get some fresh air. You just broke the most basic rule of roleplaying. That was not your character talking. That was you, the player, inserting yourself into your character and talking through him or her. This is the absolute worse thing a player can do who calls herself or himself an RPer.

If you're somehow reading this as a non-rper looking into the world of an RPer, this is your first goal. Become your character while you are playing. Don't use the character as just a manifestation of yourself.

Well. I think that's all I have to say for now. Long winded, I know. If you got this far, I hope you take something away from the essay that's new to you. I don't expect anyone to agree with everything I've said here. But do keep in mind that none of this was an attack on anyone. I am not trying to preach. Just giving my opinion If you have a different opinion, please post it somewhere so we can see all perspectives.
-From the desk of the player of Redlowwinski and Dr. Jerred Ghy
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Arahim
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:35 am Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a very cool, worthwhile read...but you knew that from the other night. I also hope it sparks discussion...and name calling. Thanks for posting it!
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Ni'Xuin
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Well beyond your comment... Who could say...
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Cuthbert
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:28 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Okay. That was a lot of reading.

I am trying to figure out the best way to word a response to this.

Let me start off by saying that I agree with the majority of what was written - I think that this is a great breakdown of how RP can work.

That being said...

The tone of the article/post is such that it comes across as "this is the correct way to RP and if you aren't doing it this way, you are doing it wrong". I'll point to specific sentences such as

"Was your answer something like: "taming/veterinary/animal lore/magery/meditation/resist/eval"? If so, you have broken my first rule for creating a character."

and

"Dupre? Iolo? Mondain? STOP THAT! STOP THAT, STOP THAT, STOP THAT!"

and the list of "Dos and Don'ts" (with special emphasis on the Donts) that are towards the end.

While I agree that RP is at its "best" when there is structure to it ("best" being a relative term and thus in quotes) I feel the need to point out that this type of "demand for RP structure" is a huge part of what keeps new blood from coming into the RP community. There was a discussion in the ARPC Community Support Staff Forum recently about this type of question ("what keeps new players from joining the RP community?") and apparently the overwhelming response (I say "apparently" because I was not the person asking for responses) was that new players think all we do is run around yelling "Thee" and "Thou" and that they will be forced into playing in a way that they don't want to play. I think the article posted here speaks to that and gives credibility to their fears.

Ultima is first and foremost a GAME. I think that sometimes, somehow, it is possible to forget that. I think all of us have gotten wrapped up in one thing or another at some point and lost sight of that, even momentarily. Since this is a game, it stands to reason that people play it because they want to have fun. This article essentially lays out "the rules you must follow in order to have fun within the RP community". Yeah, if I'm new and I see this article, I leave immediately. Because it's not fun being told what to do - ever. It's especially not fun (and somewhat ridiculous) to be told what to do inside a game that you are paying for under the idea that you are entering into an open-ended universe where you have a great deal of control over what happens to your character. Why would someone want to pay money for a game that gives them so much freedom in order to enter into a community that is going to impose so many rules? Don't get me wrong - a functioning happy community within MMORPGs does have rules. But there is a difference between rules that are necessary for proper functioning, and rules that are put in place in order to attempt to create a "utopian" RP community. Guess what? That's not going to happen (unless you'd like to go to a freeshard).

That out of the way, I'd like to address a few specific points. (If I am being honest, I'd like to run down everything point by point but I don't have the time or the energy and, moreover, that would not be fun for me and as I said before, this is a game and I am here to have fun)


"Now, what was the first thing you decided? Was your answer something like: "taming/veterinary/animal lore/magery/meditation/resist/eval"? If so, you have broken my first rule for creating a character. A character should be like a real person."
I completely agree that it aids RP to think of character creation like the character is a real person. But to suggest that making a character based on template first is wrong is completely asinine. In a utopian RP society we would all think up backstories for ever char we make before we make them. The problem is that this isn't the way things actually work. I make my characters first based on their skill template. "Hmm I have a good working Tank... sick of Mages... I haven't tried a thief though. Or an archer." These are the types of thoughts that go through a person's head when they make a character. How does deciding what skills I would like on a new character invalidate my ability to RP with that character? Cuthbert, as a character, has been around since 2001. He was not made with any backstory in mind. In fact, he was made before I even knew there was an RP community on Atl. But does he have a backstory? Yes. He has a very specific backstory, including family history which ties directly into his RP and connects him intimately with the Hand of Humanis (which is now The Republic of Magincia) and with Isk. None of this was thought of prior to his creation. He is just one example. I know there are other RPers on this shard who have Mains that were created the exact same way. To suggest that you can't RP correctly any other way is nonsense.


"Don't Assume Anything"
I was following well up until this sentence: "What you have done by creating this group of necromancers is decided the fiction of the world for yourself." Okay. And? What is wrong with creating the fiction of YOUR world for YOURself? If you have a group of friends/guildmates/etc that are okay with that story and you get some fun RP and/or quests out of it, what's wrong with that? Now if you try to apply YOUR fiction to the COMMUNITY, that's a different story. But this article doesn't speak to that difference. It just wags it's finger at someone for creating a story it feels steps on the toes of RP lore. Again, I will state that this is a GAME and should be played to have FUN. Perhaps I am a huge Ultima fan (and I am - Ultima IV was my first RPG on my Apple IIC) and thus I see UO as a way to "connect" with my favorite chars - Iolo or Dupre or whomever. Maybe my way of connecting is to come up with a storyline that connects me to them. If I enjoy this story and my friends/guildmates are okay with it, then where is the problem? There's a difference between personal RP and community RP. I think that idea gets lost within this article.

"Don't Refer to Yourself in the Third Person"
In my opinion, what this actually says is "don't go OOC. ever" I am being chastised for talking about my character in the third person? for saying something like "I need to get this char's fencing up"? Really? Come on. People go OOC. It happens and sometimes it is downright necessary. Should you go OOC in the middle of an RP scenario, where everyone around you is RPing? No, I would suggest you don't do that. But to go so far as to tell me to never do it, and, moreover, if I DO end up doing it to "stop and log out of the game" is downright insulting and pretentious. Sorry, but it is.


I know that this response comes across with a very negative tone. That is in part intended and in part not. It is intended insofar as I want to point out that people's demands to "adhere to specific rules or get out" or, rather "log out" is ridiculous, pretentious and keeps our community from attracting new blood because people see this laundry list of rules and just turn and walk away. On the flip side, I do agree with a lot of what was said here as far as applying it to people who are already established RPers that are looking for comments, or even looking for a new way to approach their own scenarios.

Overall, I think the most telling stat is that, as of me posting this, there are 78 views but the only response (outside of Ni and Arahim talking to each other) is this one.
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Cuth 10:01 PM: hey man what ended up happening?
Isk 10:02 PM: I killed an orc, the other 4 killed me then they peed on me and the banner.
Cuth 10:03 PM: lmao. okay, so we must get them back
Isk 10:04 PM: I got f**kin peed on. so, yea




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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:32 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you, Cuth, love your response. Years ago, I used to teach roleplay classes in game. One of the big topics that people would bring up often is being told how they should RP. I just really hope the purpose of this post was not to finger point at specific people, and that instead it was meant to be used constructively.

I read this and originally responded when it was posted in the Senate:

Thank you for sharing it, Ni. While I don't agree with all of the opinions listed, he does offer very good creative ideas for building character. It really does help when you have a pre-decided history to reference during roleplay, sometimes. It builds realism, also. I keep thinking that it should all be common sense, but this post reminds me that it isn't always.

It reminds me of "The 36 Plots" for some reason, perhaps how laid out it is.


And just for a refreshing read or perhaps some inspiration:

The 36 Plots by Georges Polit
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:11 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted this in the vein of NOT "telling people what is correct" and yes Redlow is known to be a touch long winded, but when I was a new player 10 some years ago, I was relieved that someone took the time to at least give a guideline.


I do not feel a style of roleplay keeps new players away...
I think its the community where some are accepting and some are not.

THAT being said, we would ALL be liars if there wasn't a heirarchy involved, whether it be here on Atlantic or on Great Lakes. I could offer an example of a guild that was "looked down upon" when we were active on Great Lakes. Does it happen here ... Possibly. But again, who's to say. The world, much like an MMORPG game, has bits of society mingling around with the ability to express things via a safe window, to hopefully expound on their creativity, or to allow an ugly side of the personality have a voice.

How many can honestly say there is not an air of arrogance with vet players. Of course there is. We design houses and characters. This as well seems more a constraint or hinderence, any level of ownership is expected, I get that, hell I have been guilty of that. My point is...lol Again not in an offensive nature, but I do believe that a 10+ year post to offer a different opinion or perhaps give light to how some within the Atlantic community approach things was done as a open handed gesture.

the one thing I would hope is this would offer some ideas to a novice player, AND perhaps that vet players like ourselves could be more approachable, then such guides/advice/or dare I venture rules would not be needed, and then the RP gene pool may grow. Must look within for outward growth *winks*

Honestly I am very pleased with the Atlantic community, and only wish to see it grow, hehe so maybe a night at the firepit in the Gypsy camp outside the Compassion gate would be fitting. For the record I love the comments, at least I know we all can communicate.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:12 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

..Sorry.. JoAnna why not post a few of the points you found helpful as well, from the " The 36 plots"
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:34 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Responses within Smile

Ni'Xuin wrote:
I posted this in the vein of NOT "telling people what is correct" and yes Redlow is known to be a touch long winded, but when I was a new player 10 some years ago, I was relieved that someone took the time to at least give a guideline.

That is great that you felt it was a guideline and not "the RP Commandments". I am sure that is how it was intended when it was written. It's just not the way it comes across to me.

Ni'Xuin wrote:
I do not feel a style of roleplay keeps new players away...I think its the community where some are accepting and some are not.

Absolutely true that we have a community where some are accepting and some are not. But this type of restrictive style DOES keep new blood away. This is based on talking to potential recruits, this isn't something that we are guessing about.

Ni'Xuin wrote:
THAT being said, we would ALL be liars if there wasn't a heirarchy involved, whether it be here on Atlantic or on Great Lakes. I could offer an example of a guild that was "looked down upon" when we were active on Great Lakes. Does it happen here ... Possibly. But again, who's to say. The world, much like an MMORPG game, has bits of society mingling around with the ability to express things via a safe window, to hopefully expound on their creativity, or to allow an ugly side of the personality have a voice.

Not sure where this came from... I never spoke of a hierarchy, but I do totally agree that some RPers are held in higher esteem than others. Again, I'm not sure how this relates to the original post..?

Ni'Xuin wrote:
How many can honestly say there is not an air of arrogance with vet players. Of course there is. We design houses and characters. This as well seems more a constraint or hinderence, any level of ownership is expected, I get that, hell I have been guilty of that. My point is...lol Again not in an offensive nature, but I do believe that a 10+ year post to offer a different opinion or perhaps give light to how some within the Atlantic community approach things was done as a open handed gesture.

I agree, it is the role (perhaps even the duty?) of veteran players to aid newcomers. What I am saying is that the way in which the article was written was in a tone not of help, but of slight disdain and in the style of a lecture. I also think some of the points (which I talk about in the previous post) are just not correct. They are the way things would work in a perfect RP world. But we dont live/play in a perfect RP world, so it doesn't benefit us to think about what works in that scenario. What benefits us is to determine what works best with what we have.


Ni'Xuin wrote:
the one thing I would hope is this would offer some ideas to a novice player, AND perhaps that vet players like ourselves could be more approachable, then such guides/advice/or dare I venture rules would not be needed, and then the RP gene pool may grow. Must look within for outward growth *winks*

I both agree and disagree. I whole-heartedly agree that we should ABSOLUTELY offer ideas and help to a novice player. I disagree with the idea that this particular article does that. The tone and style in which it is written makes RP sound restrictive and as though we don't promote creativity, when we all know that this is not the case. We encourage these types of things.

Ni'Xuin wrote:
Honestly I am very pleased with the Atlantic community, and only wish to see it grow, hehe so maybe a night at the firepit in the Gypsy camp outside the Compassion gate would be fitting. For the record I love the comments, at least I know we all can communicate.

I'm always up for talking about these issues too. I want the community to grow. ATL has a large and unique RP community in the refrence frame of UO shards. It is an amazing place to be, and should be shared with everyone who wants to be a part of it! Smile
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Cuth 10:01 PM: hey man what ended up happening?
Isk 10:02 PM: I killed an orc, the other 4 killed me then they peed on me and the banner.
Cuth 10:03 PM: lmao. okay, so we must get them back
Isk 10:04 PM: I got f**kin peed on. so, yea




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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:12 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the middle comment from myself wasn't meant in context, but it an odd observance I have made from playing on two shards. If that makes sense.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:06 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

I really don't know how to take that response, Ni. So I will just take it at face value.

I liked some of the ideas in the author's post, but I don't want to quote them and create a wall of repeated text, so I'll summarize:

Like I said above as an example of one of them- the author suggests thinking back a generation or two, or even more and using it to "flesh out" your character's personality and quirks. An awesome idea, and you can reference it during roleplay if you feel your character deviating from the personality you originally laid out. It is very handy to keep your character on track and progressing realistically. I generally think that much of what he says as far as character development is on the money and worth the time and investment. Especially later on in roleplay when you get really attached to the character you create and when the roleplay progresses.

I am not sure I like the list of do's and don't because it can be taken negatively, and can also inhibit creativity in some respects. Also, it can deter a would-be new roleplayer. They are sometimes already overwhelmed by basic rules, like no killing, no attacking, stay , etc. Refinery will come later, as they see fit and develop more as a roleplayer. One thing that I caught myself doing as years went by is like you said, judging people with an elitist attitude by how well they roleplay, spell, their grammar mistakes, and so on. Not everyone has memorized Webster's dictionary like I have. Also, all this will do is cause a negative OOC influence in most people. It may carry over to their RP IC. I have in the past couple of years had some very fun roleplay, that was both realistic and clever, even if the roleplayer wasn't head of the class in English in high school. In the end, all that matters is that all parties are enjoying themselves. Once I started to ignore the subconscious proofreading in my mind, I was able to enjoy myself a bit more. I don't know if this applies to anyone else out there or not, I speak only from my own experience. I found the more important picture to myself.

The 36 plots are just a list of possible role play scenarios offered if you want to generate a plot but are having trouble or writer's block. I have no true favorite among them, they all have the potential to create massive amounts of fun.


I hope that answers your unspoken question, if that's what it was. I'm still not sure haha
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 11:14 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

ACk.. so many points, so litty time

OK well lets look at the post for what it is: *uses her best Barbosa voice* A Guideline, not the actual rules.

It gives a very VERY good starting point into the effort and pride that we put into our chars. It tells how he (Redlow) was succuessful in his RP community. I agree with most of what he said. Not all, mind you but a good deal. Part of what I didn't agree with, has already been pointed out, so I won't rehash that entirely. In part, I think a bit of this was taken the wrong way simply because we couldn't hear his tone of voice when he was advising in this post, some of the phrasing could have been done a bit better as well, but hell, we're human.

I could see, even where he did in fact sound arrogant what he was trying to get across. It's frustrating as hell to have someone new to the RP community, knowing nothing of our history and barge in and say the Empress of Tokuno, Mayor of Moonglow, Magnate of Magincia, King of the Valley, ect

"Imma ConCur You AllZ! Bow b4 me Biotches"

It trashes RP we all work together to build and it's very disrespectful, heck, most of us work to get where we are. This bozo comes charging in claimng the world is his?

I agree with Cuth as well, it's up to the vet RPers to teach and lead by example. We current RPers didn't just fall out of a tree and know all the rules ready to go. I still have the marks from Joanna's lashings! To me, it explained that we have expectations but it failed to mention that the community will work with you if you are willing.



All in all I think we just want people to play nicely in our little make believe garden of fun times. They pay their own $14 a month a pop just like we do.

When I started playing, my character was a tamer RPly cause that's the skill set I upgraded her to and she only had one name: Alonwynn ( named from Princess Eilonwynn from the Black Cauldron and she still only has one name. I know, three strikes and I am out right?). My hat's off to my original teachers (yes, more than one as they each taught me valuable and different points and styles of RP) They should know who they are, they helped me turn my "excuse to hang out with my IRL aunt and other friends" into my first RP char, with hopes, dreams, skills, flaws, plots, fears, history, ect.


So, If someone wants to bring their char named
Iolo (no last name) who's a bard because he's worked up 1000 pts to music- That's great, we should welcome them with open arms, give them what are the actual rules, and see how they grow. Perhaps one day they will want to add a last name or change their name entirely? Or maybe they just put it into their profile. Lets not forget one of the first rules we learn in RP, "we don't have floating names over our heads or under our feet"
We don't want to make people feel excluded cause they named their favorite character before thinking that they'd ever be in an RP guild.

Thank you Ni- This gives a good starting point for RPers, it shows that yes, we do play a game, but we take pride in what we do and think about the world we create.

Thank you Cuth- For pointing out some differences in oppinion, which is always good. It helps show that the world isn't just black and white about everything.

And thank you Joanna, for just being awesome. *Runs away from the lashings coming her way for the phrasing she used earlier*
*Rant over.....for now*
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:20 am Post subject: Reply with quote

I do like the setting up of how personality, goals and fatal flaws come into play. Of everything there, I think that should really be viewed as the best information. It's said alot to make your characters "not god" ie, perfect and hero in every way. (Though new people are usually hooked by starting that way.) Twisted Evil It's great for developping and moving your character forward from being a hero to being human (or orc, or elf, or pixie). Don't get me wrong. My first character, Doireann, had one name because I wanted to smack things, and make a house. (and she did pretty well for a girl who's basic goal was to smack things.) However, I've yet to see someone who's staying with the community not start to wonder how to really expand themselves, and this would help direct them the right way. That and a good rp teacher. Razz (Thank you Joanna and Malorn!)
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: Reply with quote

I love you guys. Very Happy Drewds4Lif

edit- placeholder for more when I finish waking up
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 11:44 am Post subject: Reply with quote

Joanna wrote:
Quote:
I love you guys. Drewds4Lif


That got me up and awake. Tree huggers unite! Actually we could use a few good guy treehuggers these days.
Okay here goes, the third time is the charm. I have written a response twice now and deleted it.(Hope this one makes it) Let us just say I have grown older and wiser with my rash self. Twisted Evil

I dont want to rehash alot of things that have already been said. The post of course had important things in it that are very true, while it also had alot of opinions which I didnt agree with all of them. (and though he probably did it for comedic value telling a new rper you will laugh at them for the wrong name is a bad idea.)

What is interesting is that honestly speaking as I read down each conversation I saw great similarities in what you were all saying to each other. When Cuthbert says, on the one hand we should remember this is a game and have fun (which I totally agree with) and concurrently when Ni says, veteran rpers need to be more approachable so that people can turn to them when they are new instead of looking to articles, these two thoughts go hand in hand.

I think, that as helpful as the authors original post is, or is trying to be, it cant compare to an in game lesson. Whether by just rping by example or actual rp classes (which I know I have had leaders in my guild host for our new rpers). This is the most valuable form of teaching. I know it gave me a good solid ground, I was lucky I had someone like Joanna to , as willow put it, beat it into us.

So I nominate you guys to run one, and I will come and support it!

hahah bet you didnt all see that coming.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:40 pm Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually I'd love to! Sign me up.
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